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Poster: Zaorish Date: Jan 23, 2009 3:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Ok, I can't hold this in any longer...

[Insert toilet joke here]

OK, So I have listened to a lot of shows before 1975, and also a lot of shows after 1975. This I noticed:

In early shows, Bobby is good to great to wicked on his little guitar. Check out all those China>Rider jams from 1973-1974. And he contributes a ton of improv to each and every Dark Star and Other One.

But then..Blam. We come back in 76, 77, 78 and his skills have vanished. Now all we hear is the odd *twang* of his "valiant attempt at slide guitar" in between the other musicians' noises. Either that or he sticks like glue to the rhythm, never daring improv. His greatest moments are more the loudest, most piercing sounds he can make (like in 4-24-78), than any groovy or remotely melodic solos. If you track the rest of the shows, his continuous improvisational ability doesn't noticeably reappear until 1994, where he was forced to take on more of the workload from J.G.

Am I the only one who notices this? Or is there a wicked 1977 bobby solo somewhere I am missing?

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Poster: stratocaster Date: Jan 23, 2009 5:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ok, I can't hold this in any longer...

Weir's skills didn't diminish but his sound has definitely changed through the years...Grateful Dead music is as much known for the interplay as it is for the jams...when both Garcia and Weir played single coil guitars, ala' 72', the result was a tight consistent tonal blend...after that time, Garcia and Weir went different directions tonally...Estimated, Terrapin has those interplay parts...Weir still has always played his typical parts in Truckin', Playin', China Cat, Scarlet...he did do some soloing in Rooster (see 12-30-1981) and Friend of the Devil (the slow versions feature the Weir solo spot) and some other songs...the fact that he went to the slide might give you the impression that he took a step back, but the fact is that he remained a fantastic rhythym player but a brutal slide player, good thing he didn't play slide in 69 or 70...

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Poster: shorthopper88 Date: Jan 24, 2009 8:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ok, I can't hold this in any longer...

Oval, er...over all Id agree with you. But as with everything like this there are exceptions. I have always been drawn to this 93 Knickerbocker Peggy-O. Its one of my favorite versions of this song, and bobby IMO actually contributes quite a bit, I think he's playing a little more than just a rhythm part, its more melodic. And Jerry also shined on this night. Don't let the date scare you.

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Jan 23, 2009 4:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ok, I can't hold this in any longer...

Methinks it happened even earlier. I agree that China>Rider is the benchmark for comparative purposes. Three things happened that I'm aware of that affected his sound.

1.)The songwriting and studio work on Wake of the Flood really required an ensemble mentality. rather than straight up guitar playing, everyone had a need to be sensitive to the overall sound. Thus a more minimalist approach and lesser volumes.

2.) Bob traded in his Gibson ES335 for the "Cowboy Inbanez Artist." This guitar simply did not have the balls that the Gibson did. I was a beautifully harmonic guitar but much more jangly sounding than the ES-335. The result is fairly obvious by the time 77 rolls round. Even when he's well up in the mix, the sound is distinctly thinner than say 71-72.

3.) I've mentioned before that Weir felt that two drummers, Phil, Jerry and keys, that he had a very limited area of sonic frequencies to play in. Garcia noted in an interview that Bob kept moving up the neck into higher frequencies to have an area of his own place. Unfortunately, the result was less in your face guitar playing and more "comping" the band.

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Poster: He Live's Date: Jan 23, 2009 11:56pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: OH SURE -- I'LL STICK UP FOR BOBBY -- i don't mind....

Photobucket


first off, let me say that i have never heard this recording before five seconds ago -- but IT IS ABSOLUTELY OFF THE HOOK!!! and i NEVER listen to 89, much less much past 81.

STRANGER was bobby's most wicked, concise display of his skills in later years -- the versions from 80 and 81 are good but this tune REALLY came to life in 89 -- when the whole band was tuned in, SINGING exceptionally well and bobby had claimed the territory in the jam that he had been trying for from the get. it brings to mind the best HTH jams and the hallowed CHINA>RIDER exchanges of 72-74.

NOTHING is sacred. so i don't dispute anything you have said. for that matter you can go stuff those china-rider jams -- because the stuff Mr. Weir put down on stranger in 89-90 was a new plateau, not just for him, but for the band and just for music all around. if you are having a hard time TUNING IN, Bobby says a very clear HELLO at 5:07 in this slick jam -- follow along from there....... i have never heard anyone play like that. and i am listening....


AND REMEMBER -- HE WAS A RHYTHM PLAYER DUDE! WTF do you want? his solos always and forever SUCKED. but he could play slick motherfucking rhythm son. and that ain't no joke!

SEE ALSO: 10/9/89 (YOU TELL ME SWEETIE... what did he play on that from 4:00 till the end? some words come to mind: BRILLIANT PROPULSIVE SHARDS OF LIGHT, DIAMONDS, CAST OUT OVER A SWELL OF ENERGY AND VIBRATION.... you don't just play these kind of lines and harmonies by accident -- this is the product of years of work and practice -- this is samurai sword shit of the highest order.)

what i meant to say was ROCK ON BABY! go all the way to ZAOR!

here's some vid



This post was modified by He Live's on 2009-01-24 07:56:37

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Poster: clashcity Date: Jan 24, 2009 2:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: OH SURE -- I'LL STICK UP FOR BOBBY -- i don't mind....


"i NEVER listen to 89, much less much past 81"

I gotta say I do not for the life of me understand that mentality. Nothing wrong with it of course, as each to their own. But I just don't get it.

I'm not saying you have to permanently reside in the late 80's and 1990. Or even past 74 (as I think that is hands down the best year). But I seriously think anyone who can't acknowledge, and enjoy the great stuff this band was able to do in those later years - albeit with lesser frequency and/or consistency - does themselves a great disservice and is missing out on some truly spectacular performances.

Yea - I'm talking bout all you "I don't listen to anything past 71" fellas, and the "67-74 and 77 only" dudes.

Perfect example is what He Live's just pointed out... That 10-09-89 show is SICK and ranks up there with the all timers.

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Poster: He Live's Date: Jan 24, 2009 7:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: OH SURE -- I'LL STICK UP FOR BOBBY -- i don't mind....

hey - calm down man!

i was propping those jams, not trying to make a point out of not listening to them.

i know perfectly well what i am missing. 89-91 were the only shows i went to. generally the sound doesn't appeal to me, especially after BRENT died, and a lot of what i have heard is appallingly bad -- honestly, even in 1990 i knew it wasn't all that good.

of course, with the GD, there are bound to be diamonds in the rough.....


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Poster: clashcity Date: Jan 24, 2009 8:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: OH SURE -- I'LL STICK UP FOR BOBBY -- i don't mind....

Hmmm.. I didn't mean my tone to be interpreted quite like that. I'm calm, just don't understand how many just swear it off like its not worth even listening to...

Wasn't directed directly at you.

But I do agree there is more mediocre to pretty freaking bad in those time periods but there are some really brilliant moments and entire shows that IMO stand up with some of the "sweet spot" stuff.

I get that the sound may not speak to everyone etc. I just don't get how it can't.

This post was modified by clashcity on 2009-01-25 04:29:45

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Poster: He Live's Date: Jan 24, 2009 11:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: OH SURE -- I'LL STICK UP FOR BOBBY -- i don't mind....

too much MIDI. too much bad keyboards. too little listening and interacting among the band members. some things they did better than ever. they could play some isolated songs better than ever.... but in general, jerry's voice was shot.

the grateful dead REPORTED FOR DUTY from 91 on. went to work if you will. sure, they were going to work in 68, 72 and 77 too -- but there were many, many honest moments of groundbreaking discovery and moments of "mass transcendence" in the first 10 years that grew progressively more rare in the last 15.

i really liked bobby's version of MASTERPIECE, hell, i'll even say that TOUCH OF GREY had its moments -- there were many uplifting versions in the mid - late 80s..... and HELL IN A BUCKET and WEST LA -- they were good songs.

but next to one of the many far reaching DARK STAR>ST STEPHEN>ELEVENs that are out there, or one of the best EYES OF THE WORLD>CHINA DOLLs.... sorry man -- somewhere along the long strange trip the magic became very elusive, hard to find. it is ridiculous to think that they could sustain what they did from 67-77 -- it was the most amazing, meteoric rise to artistry that any sort of "BAND" had ever pulled off -- and all under absolutely insane, rigorous conditions.

i mean, they were like Picasso or something, but better -- doing it as a group of 6 or 7, and by extension 50 or 60, (all told, the minimum number of people it might take to pull off a concert on any given night....) not just ONE SINGULAR INDIVIDUAL ARTIST -- but an entire operation -- a community of people that sculpted a CUTTING EDGE METAPHYSICAL/SOCIAL/COMMUNAL EXPERIENCE on a very high ARTISTIC PLANE.


they shot themselves through will, guile and skill to the upper atmosphere of all-time Human artistic endeavor. and then they somehow managed to maintain interest for an additional 32 years.... and IT persists still.







This post was modified by He Live's on 2009-01-25 07:19:22

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Poster: Bassy Twang Date: Jan 24, 2009 1:12am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: OH SURE -- I'LL STICK UP FOR BOBBY -- i don't mind....

40 tons of Thai, a 109 ketch, and rehab... 89/90 was a strange year for sure. Ain't that right you theives ?

spring tour should be exciting for the cleanman.

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Poster: rastamon Date: Jan 24, 2009 5:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: OH SURE -- I'LL STICK UP FOR BOBBY -- i don't mind....

so were you at the coast when the 40tons of Thai went overboard? I've heard rumours of some grate fishing then.
In d2t05 of this show (Space) >> http://www.archive.org/details/gd1987-11-07.sbd.walker-scotton.miller.83998.sbeok.flac16

Bobby & Jerry do some excellent interplay of leads

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 23, 2009 4:10pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ok, I can't hold this in any longer...

Hey Z--I have always maintained that it was his change in vocal approach that is most dramatic (my old saw...from 73 or so, but esp by the late 70s, he begins "talking" his way thru a song...think Estimated, or most any of his ballads...), culminating in what he does these days with Ratdog and the DEAD.

But, that is my very biased, early era fanaticism coming thru...as to guitar playing, we need the likes of Midnight Sun, or JOTS, or other qualified players to comment. I will say that in the early days, I have often detected an amazing interplay between he and Jerry in CCS, or in a few others that serve as a vehicle for him, but I just don't know enough to say that this is absent from post 73 shows as you indicate.

Sorry.

And, sorry to engage in Bobby Bashing. My bad.